What Others Have Been Telling Me
Collector A
Collector B
Collector C
Collector D
Collector E
Collector F
Collector G
Collector H
Collector I
Collector J
Collector K
Collector L
Collector M
Collector N
I read with some interest your letter concerning the 4-8-4 you have. If the box is original, it sounds somewhat like an early Tetsudo Mokei-sha (Tetsudo Model Shop) piece, most likely a U.P. FEF-2 or -3 class which were commonly imported by several U.S. firms (assuming everything is original and this isn't a mix 'n match item, not uncommon in the 1950's, when tenders were sold separately much more frequently than they had been thereafter).
The place to look for marks is on the cover plate, that piece of metal that covers the bottom of the frame. You will likely only find 'Japan' - most early stuff did not have a builder's or importer's name on the model. Another place would be in the cab, on a backhead plate, if there is one. Barring that, it could have been made for International, a NY importer of the early days, who never publicized his builders, and whose products were frequently made by the many anonymous 'kitchen table/potting shed' builders so common in those days before true factories were established. M.B. Austin, especially given the road chosen, is another importer possibility.
The rubber-stamped, 'plain brown wrapper' box, with the wooden shipping platform (original items, do not discard!!) are the clues to this being one of those early models. Late-'40s - early-'50s is my call.
Do check for the odd Arabic number on the frame on the inside or on the cylinder assembly. That might indicate that this was a true handmade model built in very small numbers, which would enable me to give you a better analysis.
The two sets of smoke deflectors is an interesting point. The difference in detail might indicate that the better set was bought later to replace the originals (fortunately, undone!), or that the second set are the originals but that (fortunately) they were retained. Look to see of there are any solder marks on the loose set, which would indicate prior installation.
More from the same collecotr:
This is a Toby built model imported by PFM circa 1959.
I am not 100% sure, but I believe the boxes are the originals used by PFM for this run. There is probably a story that goes with the boxes, but who knows at this point. PFM used the standard green "loaf of bread" shaped boxes for the prior and subsequent runs.
He believes this is a PFM Crown model.
From what I can see, it might very well be Toby's work. Sawada-san (just recently passed away!) used a "Japan" stamp on the cover plate that was quite unique in its font. I will see if I can find the time to pull one of my Toby pieces (I think I'll use the D&RGW M-64 I have out) and send you a close-up jpeg of the font. That would lock it into being something Toby did if we have a match.
Relating t the boxes:
1) The model was sold in Japan, where the PFM box would not have been used. I have several items in my collection by some of the imported builders that have boxes that are original but omit the usual information. Indeed, they are unlike the Stateside boxes in any way.
2) The model was sold at an Army PX (Post Exchange) on one of the neighboring islands. Same result. There are many United models (for whom Toby built early in his career) that were sold in that fashion. Those boxes from the late '50's - early '60's are quite distinctive - yours ain't them!
3) This is a sample model, i.e. pilot model, that was hand-carried/sent to the States in non-retail boxes to PFM for production evaluation, retained and later sold as-is to make a customer happy.
The reason I tend to go with the #3 explanation is that it would better account for the two sets of deflectors, as well as the boxes. I notice that the brass used in the pilot casting seems much brighter than I would expect on a model of that vintage, and may either be a later casting or (back to #3) be a special part sent to Toby to be used on the production run, made in the U.S.. For many years, one of the boasts of PFM was the Cal-Scale, PSC, and other U.S.-made lost-wax castings used on their models.
Why the other collector chose the 1959 run of Crown FEF-2's as his choice, as opposed to the other, small Toby Crown runs of this same prototype in 1958, 1962, and 1964, all from the same basic tooling, is not clear to me. The pilots are crucial to the year of importation, because it is cited that in one run, a Kemtron pilot was used, and in a different run a Cal-Scale pilot was used, and so forth.
What you have is commonly called a "GI" Locomotive - During the Korean war , many servicemen were routing thru Japan and discovered the Model Shops were operated by many fine craftsman with the ability to take a few photographs , some minimal plans and would build a reasonable replica - this was the beginnings of the model railroad brass industry in Japan and The USA. I would guess this model was built by Tetsudo, one of the Japanese modelers who built many models for GI's. The craftsman got smart and built them in small groups 15-30, and would sell them to many stores in Tokyo and Yokahama -the US Naval Base Judging by the detail - I guess built 1956-58
Your model is DEFINITELY a Toby built model of the UP FEF-2 Northern, from 1958 or possibly earlier. I say earlier because I think it very possible that what you have is the pilot model for the 1958 PFM/United/Toby Crown model.
Some background so you can decide for yourself whether I am right. I have a really nice collection of HOn3 brass myself, but I also have my father's brass collection, approximately 50 models he bought roughly between 1959 and 1963. His collection (which I now have) contains models from a wide variety of importers, but was heavily biased toward PFM imports. We lived in Edmonds, WA at the time, the same town where PFM was located. Almost all of his models were bought new, and none that he bought new have been more than test run - a few are still in factory wrappings which have never been opened. He had 4 PFM/United Crown models, all 4-8-4 configuration - two different C&O models, a D&RGW M-64, and the UP FEF-2.
I believe my UP 4-8-4 is either late 1958 or the 1959 run. Mine is serial number 33 and has the swing coupler pilot, like yours, which means it is either the 1958 or 1959 run (per the Brown book). However, mine also has the cast headlight instead of the turned headlight that yours has, which should mean mine is the 1959 and not the 1958 run (also per the Brown Book). But since there were 50 made in the 1958 run, and mine is serial number 33, I think mine is likely late 1958, with the change to the cast headlight made in mid 1958.
Your model is unmistakably of the same manufacture as my UP Crown, but also contains many differences.
The construction of the aft part of the frame is definitely like the PFM Crown models, which are unlike any other model in my father's collection, including the non Crown PFM models. Mine also has the same pilot with the same numbering (2014) on the bottom (it actually looks like the 4 may be over struck over a 1).
However, there are many small differences between the models, and mine is generally better detailed than yours, which is part of the reason I think yours is likely a pilot model. The fact that yours has no serial number, does not have the United Crown ID plate, and that the original box is not the typical United Crown green also suggests to me that it is the pilot model. Since it has the turned headlight, it could not have been made later than 1958 in any case.
A couple of the more significant differences I noticed: My Locomotive fore and aft trucks appear the same as yours, but are mounted differently. However, the mounting on yours is the same style as on my D&RGW M-64 Crown from 1959, and the fore trucks on the tender have the same style mounting on both our models. The .15 inch square cross member on the back part of the frame is located further aft and lower on my model that yours. My drawbar has a dogleg (jogs upward) in it. The cab windows on yours are different than mine. I have additional detail on top of the sand dome and some additional detailing on the boiler. The "Union Pacific Railroad" plate below the headlight is more detailed on my model than yours. Etc, etc.
So you are probably asking, what kind of box does mine have? I think mine came in two separate green boxes, but without any markings on the boxes. I say 'I think' because while most of my father's models were packed away in their original boxes, he kept some of them out of their boxes on a cupboard shelf, with the boxes stored down in the basement. His UP 4-8-4 Crown was one of those, so I can't be positive that the green boxes belong to the UP Crown, although the color appears to match that of his other PFM Crown boxes.
Follow Up Letter
I was looking at the photos of your Toby UP 4-8-4 again a couple of days ago, and had a few other observations I thought I would pass along.
The smoke deflectors on my UP Toby/PFM Crown have the same rivet detail as the set mounted on your loco, and not the spare set you have. However, mine extend back another 1/4 inch (approx) and are not rounded on the aft upper corners like yours.
On your web site you called attention to the fact that the rear screws that hold the frame to the cab come in from the back of the loco and not up from below. This does appear to be typical practice for Toby models. I have a NWSL Northern Pacific 2-8-2 made in 1961-64 by Toby that was a more moderately priced model ($60 list), and the screws holding the cab to the frame come in from the back also.
My model, in addition to the PFM Crown logo in the cab on the boiler backhead, also has 'Japan' on the bottom between the second driver pair.
I think you can still get brand new pilots identical to what we have on both our UP 4-8-4's from PSC. The pilots on the model were made by Kemtron (per the Brown Book), and the sketch of the pilot shown in a 1957-58 Kemtron catalog that I have is the same sketch that is in the current PSC catalog (PSC did acquire Kemtron back in the 1980's).
In the caption to a photo (lower photo) on page 35 of the Brown book, the author makes the comment that for early handbuilt models, it was common to find detail differences from model to model - and he specifically mentions this in regard to early Toby handbuilts. However, the differences between our models are significant enough that I still feel it is very probable that yours is the pilot model.
Sir: I have never seen its like. Its not a toby. All I can think is that it may be one of the very early Tenshodos made in the mid 50s or a scratch built.
I think it is a Toby.
I am pretty sure it is a Crown model because the drivers are brass wheels - a sign of quality. Moreover there is a back plate. Albeit it is blank it is there and most models of that vintage did not bother with back plates - except Crowns - the early ones were blank.
The front pilot is definitely a swing type - most likely a Kemtron. The headlamp looks like a turning to me and not a casting.
The early Crowns did not have an over spray - as this model does not.
There are two problems. I do not see the Toby logo. Moreover the box is problematic - it should be in a PFM Crown series box.
What happened was many GI's station in Japan in the 50's brought these models back on their own - without an importer (i.e. PFM). My guess would be something like that.
I have sold several Crowns through Sotheby's and by Private Treaty.
The conundrum I currently have is this really a Toby Crown? I think it is most likely one - almost certainly made by the same shop.
What you have is commonly called a "GI" Locomotive - During the Korean war , many servicemen were routing thru Japan and discovered the Model Shops were operated by many fine craftsman with the ability to take a few photographs , some minimal plans and would build a reasonable replica - this was the beginnings of the model railroad brass industry in Japan and The USA.
I would guess this model was built by Tetsudo, one of the Japanese modelers who built many models for GI's. The craftsman got smart and built them in small groups 15-30, and would sell them to many stores in Tokyo and Yokahama -the US Naval Base Judging by the detail - I guess built 1956-58
I will say the casting is a CalScale part made in the USA and was used by Toby, Tetsudo and others - I can say Toby or Tetsudo - they were friends and built together - It was a "cottage" industry - It is not a "United" Model that is for sure - too early for it to be
Your engine goes back to the dark ages of brass models in the late 1950's or early 1960's. Who made it is anybodys guess.
I just had to write you! I came across the discussion about your UP 4-8-4 on the Web today, and I couldn't believe it! I can't really answer your questions, but I can tell you my experiences.
In the early 1960's, I bought a UP 4-8-4 from a very active HO brass trader in the NYC area. I think his name was Vincent Waterman. He was running long ads in every issue of MR. He told me it was a United loco, and I believed him, but I never could find any ID on it, so I assumed it had been bootlegged into the US. It was painted, and United locos were usually unpainted, but it didn't look like a factory paint job because the smoke box was black. The former owner had de-flanged the middle drivers (very rough job), so I sent them to PFM, and I received new replacements at no charge. At the time I assumed this meant that PFM acknowledged that the loco was made by United (but maybe it was just courtesy since the new drivers didn't quite match).
In any case, I just compared my 4-8-4 with your pictures, and the match is PERFECT! The boxes are the same, including the "TENDE" marking. The front truck mounting bolt is the same. The number on the underside of the pilot is the same. The front coupler is the same. And one thing you didn't mention: The UP shield beneath the headlight is out of proportion (much too tall and narrow). BTW, the smoke deflectors are soldered on.
I guess this rules out the prototype theory. I doubt that the builder would have made two identical prototypes. The GI (small batch) theory might be right. What do you think?
I have examined the photographs and read your commentary. I can give an opinion based on my associations with Kemtron, PSC, PFM, Cal-Scale, not to mention numerous Japanese contacts.
1. The model was made sometime between 1948 and 1954. I think this can be said because of the almost complete lack of investment castings, judging by the photos. Castings from Cal-Scale and Kemtron started to appear on Japanese-made models about 1955-1956.
2. The boxes are standard export-style boxes from that time period.
3. The reason for two separate boxes may have had something to do with either export duties in Japan or U.S. Customs duties. As an example, we used to import models with the trucks removed and boilers separate form the chassis. This reduced the US Customs duties appreciably.
4. As to the importer, I can hazard a guess it might have been International Hobbies, one of the first, if not the first, outfits to bring in Japanese models on an organized basis. It also might have been Kemtron, as he used to bring in odd lots of models from time to time.
Some of these very early models were built in small lots of 12 or so. You might turn both the locomotive and tender upside down and see if there are any scribed numbers such as "2-12" or "2/12" which would only re-enforce the early nature of the model.
Please let me know if I can be of further help or information.
Bob, I forgot to add the pilot casting on the model is a Commonwealth, offered by Budd. Budd castings were started around 1950, sold through Kurtz Kraft. In 1955, the Budd line was purchased by Kemtron Corporation.
I do not know the Budd number for this casting; Kemtron's part number was Budd-02.
Although the casting could have been added at a later date (always possible), its presence on the model still suggests a model done prior to 1954.
As far as scribed marks, numbers, etc., also look at the underside of the roof, and inside the tender shell.
Interesting.
I have a couple of old friend in Japan. I've sent some of the photos to them to see what they think this is. Nothing like going to the source. Depending on what I get back from the 1st guy, I may have to print and mail photos to the 2nd guy. Both go back to the early days of model building in Japan.Here is the response from his friend in Japan:
It is the first experience seeing this model. She would be very early model retaining some tastes of pre-1958 or so. But, in the pictures, I see some of typical taste by Mr. Takeno who had been the exclusive hand-made artist of Toby. He had made all of the PFM Crown models by Toby through Mr. Furuya who later raised the Fujiyama by himself.
Comparing to the PFM-Toby UP FEF-2, your pictures show same taste in the smoke-lifters as well as around the cylinder. With seeing the front part of the main flame, I think only Mr. Takeno might done such a neat job with very thick brass sheet. Well rounded cab roof is also same as the PFM-Toby FEF-2.
I suppose this model may be the very early work of Mr. Takeno and very few piece might be produced as some semi-custom made which was rather standard style at the model shops such as Tenshodo or Toby which operated for the US military personal who stayed around Tokyo, Tachikawa, Yokota or Yokosuka. There were some very skillful craftsmen like Mr. Takeno belonging to each shops. I see the plain box shows the model was such type very limited handmade.
I will be very happy if this will help even a little.
With my best regards to you.
I just had to write you! I came across the discussion about your UP 4-8-4 on the Web today, and I couldn't believe it! I can't really answer your questions, but I can tell you my experiences.
In the early 1960's, I bought a UP 4-8-4 from a very active HO brass trader in the NYC area. I think his name was Vincent Waterman. He was running long ads in every issue of MR. He told me it was a United loco, and I believed him, but I never could find any ID on it, so I assumed it had been bootlegged into the US. It was painted, and United locos were usually unpainted, but it didn't look like a factory paint job because the smokebox was black. The former owner had deflanged the middle drivers (very rough job), so I sent them to PFM, and I received new replacements at no charge. At the time I assumed this meant that PFM acknowledged that the loco was made by United (but maybe it was just courtesy since the new drivers didn't quite match).
In any case, I just compared my 4-8-4 with your pictures, and the match is PERFECT! The boxes are the same, including the "TENDE" marking. The front truck mounting bolt is the same. The number on the underside of the pilot is the same. The front coupler is the same. And one thing you didn't mention: The UP shield beneath the headlight is out of proportion (much too tall and narrow). BTW, the smoke deflectors are soldered on.
I guess this rules out the prototype theory. I doubt that the builder would have made two identical prototypes. The GI (small batch) theory might be right. What do you think?
Collector M: (Note: this is the first collector to see the model in person)
This is a very rare handbuilt model I believe it is by Toby. It may be a pilot model based on the lack if manufacturers markings. Exquisite workmanship, original box (plain cardboard instead of the green Toby box). While we have seen a great many handbuilts, we have never seen one quite like this and the condition is like new, it even runs like a watch.
Collector N: (Added 12/13/2008)
I got a locomotive in the mail today that I bought off of Ebay. It was listed as a Max Gray UP FEF-3, but I suspected that it was an early PFM crown, a UP FEF-2 (I have collected bass for about 40 years). I was delighted to find that this was in fact the case, although the engine does require some repairs. As an extra bonus, I found a serial number, #7, stamped on the frame, indicating that it is probably a 1958 run crown, or possibly a 1959.
I did some internet searches, and was startled and pleasantly surprised to find your web site, with the FEF-2 and comments. Wow, talk about a gold mine of information!
I also found a listing and photos on John Gurdak's site, Uncle Dave's Brass Model Trains. The boxes he shows are exactly like yours, however, the model in his listing is much more highly detailed that even the 62 and 64 run Toby crowns. So it may be hard to infer much from the boxes in his listing. His engine may also have been redetailed at some point. Even so, it was still made at a later date than your engine.
Comparing my locomotive with yours, it appears to me that not only does your model have fewer investment castings, but also, the model seems to be in an earlier stage of development of the model. The proportions are a little different, and the boiler courses are evenly spaced. The drivers also seem to be slightly smaller in diameter than on my engine. Finally, the backhead work and the number boards on the front are much more basic. Based on these observations, I would think your model was made prior to 1958.
It is also interesting to note that, while my pilot casting has the same number as yours, it is not the same casting. I found Collector J's discussion to be very persuasive in this matter. The Budd Commonwealth casting may have been retooled after being acquired by Kemtron. Still, though, I don't think I would go earlier than 1954 or 1955, given the workmanship. My guess is somewhere in the range 1954 to 1957, as the earliest the engine could have been made.
I do agree that it is a Toby engine. It is not clear whether it is S. Takeno's work directly. The engine likely was sold directly to a member of the Allied Occupation Forces through Mr. Noboru Sawada's shop in Yokohama. According to The Art of Brass, Volume 2, the 50 UP 4-8-4's exported by Toby in 1958 were likely Toby's first export venture. The Takeno connection would have been through Mr. Saburo Furuya, who would go on to found Fujiyama. According to the Art of Brass, Furuya and Toby first cooperated on a PFM order in 1959.
On this connection, I found Collector K's argument quite persuasive. If we assume that the engine is an early Takeno piece, but the engine predates the 1958 export run, this probably narrows the time frame down to 1957-1958, when the engine could have been made.
In sum, I think the range years possible is probably the years 1950 to 1959, with years prior to 1954 as being very unlikely. Of the years 1954 to 1959, 1958 and 1959 are probably too late for the construction design. So I would settle on the years 1954 to 1957, with 1957 being the most likely.
I see nothing to suggest that the engine is a PFM prototype.
I can't see the extra set of smoke lifters clearly, but it does not appear that they are hand-riveted. If they are in fact photoetched, they're from a much later period
z